There were six Elders present at this Judicial Committee held on December 24, 1983—three from the original Judicial Committee and three more added as an Appeal Committee.
JD:	We have your letter of appeal and a copy of your letter. I’m going to make some notes here on the way we’re going to handle it. We’re having a hearing here on the matter of appeal. The charge is apostasy. Apostasy is defined by the Society as “stubbornly holding to and spreading and speaking about teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by the Society.
Joe:	That is the definition of apostasy according to this manual.
JD:	And so because of that apostasy we want to hear all the evidence relevant to the charges of apostasy. We want to also hear whatever was submitted originally and anything you would like to add to it and also our goal is to establish the scriptural basis for the original action of apostasy. Did you actually make a copy of the statement? We’re also wondering was there any repentance at the time the action was taken? (These last two statements directed to the original Judicial Committee). So in looking over your appeal,…………..letter of appeal. What they tell us in here the reason you have an appeal hearing is first of all is a serious error in judgment on the part of the judicial committee or that you just weren’t guilty or you were repentant of the charges. So in this letter of appeal you mention some charges that Br. B----- which really does not have any bearing on whether you are apostate or not. That might be something that the body of elders would have to deal with directly.
Velta:	Well, I think that we put in it there the way that we felt, that if we really were going to be judged by, as the organization book says, three or more brothers. Then there should be at least three competent ones.
JD:	And then the other charge is that it is difficult to be involved…………….that’s going to be the organization………But do you have anything further to add to this or add to the original charge?
Joe:	Well, we feel that the definition of apostasy that was given was not scriptural. No one gave us any scriptures to us as far as apostasy was concerned. I think the definition of being apostate as outlined by that booklet is not covered by the Bible. Perhaps it’s an organizational thing with Jehovah’s Witnesses but it’s not clearly defined in the Bible because we speak against something we claim they are not doing.
Velta:	Well, I don’t feel that I’ve spoken against anyone in my personal remarks. I don’t feel that I’ve spoken against anyone or anything.
JD:	Not against the organization?
Joe and Velta:	No

JD:	You are in full harmony with all the teachings?
Joe and Velta:	No
Velta:	No, we’re not, but that doesn’t mean we’re speaking against it. If someone says to me…the Bible says you always have to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you. And just because my hope doesn’t happen to be the same hope that the Watchtower Society…I’ve never gone out to try to proselytize Jehovah’s Witnesses per se. My only acquaintances are Jehovah’s Witnesses because that’s the way I was taught by the organization and by my parents. Consequently, I don’t have any friends outside. So if my friends ask me something what am I going to say to them?
Joe:	In this regard too, according to our letter there was nothing done beforehand on the part of the Judicial Committee in preparation. They did not come and ask us, they took the word of other people and at that meeting, we came in cold. We didn’t know what charges were being made. All that was told us that allegations were being made about apostasy. I believe that is what you said, Jxxxxx, over the telephone?
J.H. nodded.
Joe:	So we didn’t know what the situation was until we got here and they said did you say this and did you say that…just accepted what we said, we’re not liars, we’re straight forward, but we don’t feel that it’s enough to be called apostate. From the definition of the Bible, an apostate is someone who is immoral……adulterers, fornicators and never mentions apostasy in the Bible anywhere as far as being an apostate against an organization.
JD:	Well, have you spread any teachings contrary to the Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses? Do 144,000 go to heaven or are there more than that?
Joe:	Now, you’re asking me a leading question because you say, are you, how did you say that?
JD:	I was reading it.

Joe:	Read it again.
JD:	Have you spread any teachings contrary
Joe:	What do you mean spread?
JD:	Talked to others about it.
Joe:	We didn’t go out purposely to talk to others about it, no. The only time we talked to others about it was when they asked us.
JD:	Then did you tell them as, like this letter to the Thomases in Montana.
Joe:	Why don’t you read the letter in it’s entirety, you have a copy.
JD:	They just mention that you two have been having doubts. I can’t find the letter you wrote to them, that you had doubts and that you were going to write to the Society but somehow you never did write them, why was that?
Joe:	Well the Society always says. You research it from the publications and we found nothing in the publications regarding anything, but does that mean Jim, that if in your study of the Bible, you find something that’s in the Bible, that you have questions on that all of a sudden you become an apostate because you have doubts about what they teach?

JD:	Not so long as you don’t spread it.
Joe:	Define spreading.
JD:	Well, I’ll read it over, by us, do you spread teachings contrary to the Bible truth as taught by Jehovah'’ Witnesses. Have you done any of that, did you talk to people?
Joe:	We haven’t gone out and knocked on door, or have we
JD:	No, but you have a Bible study group, I believe in your home.
Joe and Velta:	With our family.
JD:	Do you invite other people to it?
Joe:	We have invited one other person. We have invited other people, in fact, we invited KS to come in and see what we did and he never came so if that’s apostate then all of us are apostates, Jxxx.
JD:	Well, I just wondered, do you at those meetings, have you ever . . . when you talk to others do you talk about some of the Bible teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Joe:	Would you like to know what we do at those meetings?
JD:	No, I’d like to know about these particular points you’ve been charged with.
Joe:	No, we do not bring those things up. All we do is read a chapter in the Bible and discuss it. That’s all we do.
JD:	Now in these letters, they make specific charges that the heavenly hope belongs to all Christians, not just 144,000.
Joe:	That’s what the Bible teaches.
JD:	You mean that’s the way the Bible teaches?
Joe:	As far as I’m concerned.
Velta:	Can you show in the Greek Scriptures
JD:	No we’re not here to discuss scriptures.

Velta:	We’re not?
JD:	We’re here to discuss, does your teaching, does what you teach others, does that disagree with the Society.
Joe:	Now just a minute, you keep saying, “What you teach others”. You haven’t established the fact that we taught anybody, that’s
JD:	Well, Sr. Sxxxx and Br. Mxxxx and some of these others
Joe:	Are they here?
JD:	No, but we have a letter from them that
Joe:	We specifically asked them in our letter to produce the witnesses so things would be recorded in the proper manner. We specifically stated that in our appeal, if you recall.
JD:	Let me go through these six points and just find out so the one on the heavenly hope you don’t agree with the Society, that this is not God’s organization. Is that what you feel?
Joe:	We believe that he doesn’t have an organization on earth, an earthly, human organization

Velta:	I don’t think I’ve specifically said that this isn’t Jehovah’s organization. I said I have serious doubts since the things that I have seen, I never said
PN:	How, how did you put that Joe, we believe that Jehovah does not have an organization?
Joe:	Well, see here’s what we’re going on
PN:	I just kind of rather than going on to something else, I’d just kind of like to see how you’ve stated that so then I would know whether that is opposite to the way the Society teaches. You made the statement there that “we believe Jehovah does not have a visible organization.
Joe:	Well, let me say it this way. From what we have been seeing in the Bible, from the investigation we’ve made on the “Faithful and Discreet Slave Class” or the organization, the scriptures do not support that teaching of the Society. They do not.
PN:	What’s that teaching?
Joe:	That’s about the ‘faithful and discreet slave” class. It talks about the faithful and discreet slave in both Matthew and Luke and it says
JD:	And you don’t think it agrees with what the Society teaches, does not agree with the Bible?
Joe:	That’s right.

JD:	Now the preaching from door to door. The Society stresses that very strongly. You mention that’s not necessary for Christians?
Joe:	My wife mentioned she felt it wasn't . . . Not necessary for her as a woman. I have never said anything like this.
JD:	But you don’t feel that way either?
Joe:	Well, I don’t. I know that the Bible stresses teaching and making disciples, but it does not specify, as far as I am concerned, you show me, if I’m wrong, anywhere, that it means going from house to house.
Velta:	That’s as far as going out to strangers.
JD:	That’s going out and ringing doorbells?
Joe and Velta:	Right.
JD:	This disfellowshiping on things like smoking and what have you, you don’t think that has scriptural support?
Joe to Velta:	Go ahead and answer like you did before. (In the first committee meeting)

Velta:	I think, it isn’t in the Bible as far as disfellowshiping is concerned. I think there are many things that have been decided on by the Society that are disfellowshipping acts that I don’t necessarily approve of, for instance smoking is a very detestable practice to me. Sexual acts that go on between a husband and wife, I believe is private. I don’t think the congregation has any business telling, saying what they should not do and I don’t approve of these things; it’s just that I don’t see any Bible scriptures that say this
JD:	What the Society teaches?
Velta:	That supports that three men can come in and say you are disfellowshipped for this. And even in the one scripture where it talks about disfellowshiping it talks about the congregation. It doesn’t talk about representative of the congregation or the Elders or the Overseers. It says the congregation. Paul wrote to the congregation as a whole, not just to three men as a judicial committee. So I feel that they overstep their bounds in becoming dictatorial by saying what I can and what I can’t do personally. I know they’re harmful to my body and they’re wrong, but for someone to come in and tell me what I can or can’t do in my home, I think is an invasion of my privacy, that men don’t have.
JD:	Including smoking or
Velta:	Well, I did not say that, I think that adultery and fornication and those things are within the realm of the congregation to say you can’t do because the Bible says so, but I don’t believe that personal habits, even though they may be filthy habits
Joe:	I just thought of something, Jxx
JD:	What about drugs?
Velta:	I think drugs are very harmful and I certainly am against them.
JD:	……………….the congregation to act on them?

Velta:	I don’t see any scriptural
Joe:	Anything we say, what we’re talking about tonight, we’re talking about on the basis of the Bible, not on the basis of an organization. Not this one or any other religious organization.
JD:	You see, Joe, I think that is where the problem is, you see, there’s Catholics, there’s Protestants and there're Jehovah’s Witnesses. We all take the Bible and we come up with different meanings to what it says. Now you’re coming up with a different meaning. You sound like you’re sincere about it. I’m not questioning your sincerity, but what we’re saying is, when you were a Catholic and started studying the Bible, like Calvin or someone else and you come up with different ideas, that was apostasy against the Catholic Church. And when someone is a Protestant, I was a Baptist and when I became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was an apostate as a Baptist. I may think I’m right now and that the Baptists were wrong, but if I was to make another change and start studying the Bible like you are and come up with different……even though conscientiously feeling I’m right, I’m an apostate of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Joe:	Well, if following the Bible makes me an apostate to Jehovah’s Witnesses, then I’m apostate. But I’m apostate as far as an organization…..this is the only charge that is made to be an apostate against an organization.
JD:	That’s all we’re saying.
Joe:	Okay, if it’s not based on scripture
Velta:	Well, just a moment, when I mentioned that to this committee here, (motioning to the original Judicial committee) they told me that apostasy against the organization and Jehovah God was the same thing in their opinion.
JD:	Well, just because, see that’s because we feel that what the Society teaches is the truth, but you talk to a Catholic, you talk to the Pope, he thinks we a bunch of apostates because he feels the way the scriptures teach he has what is right. I don’t think so, I think the Catholics are all wrong. Now you have a different view of the way Jehovah’s Witnesses as an organization teach, you see?
Joe:	Okay, now

JD:	What an apostate is, is pulling away from or standing away from and if all of a sudden Jxxx here and I have sharp difference in belief on the truth, one of us is an apostate.
Joe:	Then you have a whole organization of apostates because you never all agree on the same thing.
JD:	Well
Joe:	You really don’t Jxx. That’s kind of splitting a hair right down the center.
JD:	Well, John, Paul and Barnabus had some pretty heated discussions and they disagreed but they weren’t apostates, they still stuck with the organization.
Joe:	They stood apart from each other because of their argument?
JD:	But they only argued with each other, not on the basis of Scripture.
Joe:	Now we’re talking about scripture. Let’s talk about scripture. If that makes an apostate, if a person believes in what the Bible says as opposed to an organization
JD:	Well, Joe, we believe what the Society teaches. You believe what the Scripture teaches, but you feel it’s different than what the Society teaches.

Joe:	Jxx, let’s put it this way. I want to tell you a little story that you are acquainted with it. Txxx is sort of acquainted with it and Jxxxxxxx is not acquainted with it. This is the way this whole thing started and you should know the background. It’s only right that you should. Three years ago I stepped down as an Elder over a problem I had that I took care of, the details are not important. Gxxxxx knows them, he knows I corrected. I’m paying for them to this day and it will be a while before I’ll be out of debts because of that mistake, but it was a mistake that I corrected and I stepped down to save the Elders the problem. Okay, from this time on we were treated like we were disfellowshipped. So we came to the Body of Elders, we came before them. Txxx was not there, he wasn’t an Elder and Gxxxx was and Jxxxxxx wasn’t in the congregation. And we said, we felt like w were an embarrassment to you. We were trying to be kind and loving. Because the brothers hardly even greeted us at the meetings. So you remember that don’t you, (to GB and he said “Yes.”) and the only one of the whole body at that time that said anything about it was Gxxxxx. He said: “Joe, I don’t feel you’re an embarrassment” and I appreciated that. We went to the Circuit Overseer, two three Circuit Overseers with that same thing. It had gotten so that we felt the brothers were unloving because they didn’t show concern. Now we went to the Overseers, we went to this Body. The last time we went to the Body of Elders, Txxxx was part of it, Jxxxxxx was not. The division hadn’t come yet for splitting the congregation and rearranging and we said the very things we’re being accused of now and no action was taken. We came because somebody, that sister that was sitting and reading the Bible with us was approached by TB and he read a scripture from Titus, Chapter 3 vs. 9-11 saying stay away from those who are sects, I forget exactly how the scripture says it, you can read it if you want to
JD:	I know the one you mean
Joe:	It’s talking about apostates. He had already marked us as apostates. She didn’t know how we felt, but they lost that sister, they stumbled her by what they did.
JD:	Well, if they did, Joe, they have to answer.
Joe:	That’s fine, but here’s the point. We came, we tried to correct things, we tried to straighten things out and nobody paid any attention, Jxx. So we just retired from the congregation. We went about our own business. We had gone before them, told them and talked to them and pleaded. Nothing was done. So we left the congregation. All of a sudden, here we have……we’re before a committee, a Judicial Committee that didn’t even bother to come and talk to us about the charges beforehand and they called this meeting and now we’re apostates. Where’s the love?
JD:	What happened back there, when you deal with people in these last days
Joe:	Don’t we deal with people all the time, as Christians, one with another?
JD:	Then there’s going to be problems just like it says in Ecclesiastes, we don’t want to become heated up over what our brother says or does, because we ourselves do the very same thing.
Joe:	Yes, but remember too the words of Paul when he said : "You could do miracles, we could do everything, but if you do not have love . . ."

JD:	I agree with you, that’s right
Joe:	So that’s our complaint.
JD:	But, Joe, if these brothers are very unloving that has nothing to do with pulling away from the organization and standing off and not agreeing with the basic teachings that you have accepted and believed for, strongly, for years, I don’t know how long you’ve been in the truth, 30 or 40 years?
Joe:	Yes, I’ve been in your position, I was baptized in 1936.
JD:	And your wife, I don’t know how many years. It’s been a lot, I’m sure.
Velta:	1941. I had someone call me on the phone and say how come I was so stupid for all those years, if now I’m not believing what I’ve been taught. I must have been awfully stupid to believe that all those years and now I’m changing my mind. What happen with me was a series of things and these doctrines right now that we’re being accused of saying, to me they’re not important. They’re merely what I have observed from the Bible and they are…and I’ll tell you why they’re not important. Because when we die, we’re going to find out one way or another what God’s purpose is for us, whether it’s heavenly or earthly. It doesn’t make any difference what I think now, it’s what happens then that’s going to be important. It’s up to Jehovah anyway. I mean, I might think I’m going to be earthly and I may end up in heaven. So what am I going to do? So it’s up to God, he chooses and he places each one where he wants them to be. It doesn’t matter what I think, or what I feel, where I’m going to go. As far as the Faithful and Discreet Slave, every organization on earth has a scripture, religious organization has a scripture that backs them up as the one and only organization. In imperfect man there is no absolute truth. What I feel that is about if the fact that today what I believe, tomorrow you may believe the same thing. I will be disfellowshipped, you will be tacking. I object to that. I don’t think it is a loving thing to do to pin people down, that you have to believe this doctrine or you’re not a true Christian and next year they’re saying if you don’t believe this you’re . . .
Joe:	Oops
Velta:	Yeah.
Joe:	In effect, they say “oops, we made a mistake”

Velta:	To me that does not seem like a loving thing that you can take something and say this is an absolute truth and you have to believe it and next year for it to be turned around. I mean, I’ve read the articles that say we’re tacking, we going in the same direction, but what about the people who got disfellowshipped when they were tacking on that doctrine?
JD:	I understand what you’re saying and it seems to be just what you said to them, (indicating the men on the other Judicial committee). At least, you’re consistent. But from what you’re saying it means that you’re not, you’re teaching things or believing things
Joe:	Let’s say believing things, because as far as teaching thing, because we haven’t made any organized effort to say anything to anybody that they didn’t come and ask us about. WM, for example. I don't know what he told you. But he asked me on the job how I knew a certain individual who was working for the construction company. He asked was it religious and I said yes and no. I’ve know the man. So we got to talking and I said I am no longer going to meetings, I’m no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and he said: “Why not?” and I said: “I don’t believe some of the things they teach, I have questions about some of the things they teach” I told that to KS, “I have questions about the things they teach. And it’s strange to me that when you say that……and I’m going to bring up something else right now to illustrate a point. In your case (talking to JD) you were Circuit Overseer, a very spiritual man and very encouraging to other people and I went all the way from Rancho Cordova to Orangevale to listen to your talk about pioneering. Frankly, you made me feel real bad because I wasn’t pioneering and I didn’t have 500 kids or 5 kids, you know what I’m saying.
JD:	(Laughs) Yes, I know
Joe:	No, no, you made an illustration: Could a woman with 5 kids and an unbelieving mate pioneer? Yes, could a man in a wheelchair pioneer? But in your case, you gave up the pioneer work on account of your son. I can appreciate why because you had his interest at heart. You saw his side of the story. Now the point I’m making is: people are not listening to what our side of the story is. They’re judging us on something like apostasy against an organization; “Don’t talk to those people” to me. I feel that’s wrong, that’s unloving, that’s unkind. I think that’s unchristian.
GB:	(This part unclear, said something regarding they had talked to us, Bro. P (Circuit Overseer) had talked to us. KS had several times talked to us, so it sounds like somebody tried)
Joe:	He didn’t try. He did not try. I’ll tell you why he didn’t try.
JD:	Who didn’t try?
Joe:	KS didn’t try and Bro. P did not try. Bro. P came and listened to our views and his comments were when we asked him a question was: “Well, I’m no scholar” to the question we had, the query we had. They didn’t satisfy our questions, always come up with “Why don’t you write the Society, research the Society’s publications.” So if the case is that we are going to be disfellowshipped as apostates because we believe different that what the Watchtower believes, then there is no other course is there?

JD:	Not really.
Joe:	But really, but the question we ask is it Christian, is it Scriptural and if it’s scriptural, prove it.
JD:	Well, you see, Joe, if we get into this scriptural discussion, then this gets to be just like a discussion, a debate like with a church and we don’t, like on the Trinity, you see, it’s an endless thing.
Joe:	We don’t want to debate doctrine, but we would like an understanding on where the love, if this is a loving thing to do to one another.
JD:	Well, we’ve got to be loving and we’ve got to help one another, but when it comes to doctrinal teachings, we firmly believe that this is Jehovah’s organization. We firmly believe in the Faithful Slave and in the Governing Body and w believe we will get our food through this organization and that’s where we all learned the truth.
Joe:	We learned a great deal of truth through the organization.
JD:	There’s a lot of unloving things that happen, just like between Paul and Barnabus and I’ve been with the Watchtower and on the farm and I’ve dealt with lots of people and I know how people are and sometimes we get hurt, but just like it says in Ecclesiastes. I’ve done some pretty dumb things myself, I can’t be critical of the Society but we feel it’s Jehovah’s channel and to deviate from that causes divisions, a pulling away and a tearing apart. That’s what the warning in the scriptures is to stay away from people who
Joe:	But when it talks about marking someone it isn’t talking about, there is nothing clear-cut in the Bible about disfellowshipping, Jxx. I, in my reading, haven’t found it. Like you say, I buy imperfections in people. I do not dislike any one of these men. I think highly of Txxx even though he’s incompetent as far as scriptural discussion in some cases. The way I feel, I think Txxx is a good fellow, he’s got a good heart, he loves people.
JD:	We all have our flaws, none of us have got it all together. There was only one and they nailed him to a tree.

Joe:	That’s right.
PN:	Joe was……….on disfellowshipping itself.
JD:	I know that.
Velta:	Well, my thought on the matter is that individuals, it’s not an individual thing. I’ve seen a lot of unloving things as far as individuals in concerned, but I think there are points in the Bible that are stressed. What the Society doesn’t stress that makes the situation the way it is. For instance, in the Bible it talks about, well, when Jesus was on earth most of his miracles were physical, curings and healings and things like that. He thought about the physical needs of the people before he even preached to them most of the time and it brings out in the bible there should be a list of widows and orphans to take care of them. Those that are poor, the widows and orphans taken care of and so for and so on. It talks about a lot of physical things and I think this is one of the main problems. The Society has it all backwards. They put strangers first, because door-to-door is the mainstay of the organization. That’s the thing they believe, they count the time and so forth. That’s their number one thing. Number two they take care of the people in the congregation and number three, the last is their families. And Gxxxx said himself, he like to spend more time with his family but the system doesn’t allow it. If you work, you go to bed at 10 o’clock at night, you can’t really count you time you own till 6 the next day which leaves you four hours for yourself, when do
Joe:	About the time you could be spending with your family right now.
JD:	I appreciate that, but that’s the reality of a dying system.
Velta:	That’s the reality, I see, in teaching a lack of love. They have a sister in the congregation right now who is dying and they don’t even know about it because they haven’t even inquired about why she hasn’t been to the meetings for two weeks.
GB:	If you mean your mother-in-law it was announced from the platform the other day.
Velta:	Well, no one has been to see her. We haven’t heard any word at all from the congregation.

GB:	We heard she came home the other day.
Velta:	That’s right, she’s home.
Joe:	She came home to see her children before she died, but you didn’t know that.
Velta:	But this is what I’m saying, I’m not complaining about that. It’s just that I see there is so much time spent going from door-to-door and this sort of thing, that people don’t have time for people in the congregation. And I think it’s a shame about them. And I’ve seen that in congregation after congregation after congregation. And that’s why I say
JD:	If I was to come into the congregation, if I was Christ and walked into the congregation and wanted to find fault and find weaknesses and shortcomings, we’re riddled with them. You see that’s what we are a group of imperfect people. But when it comes to religious organizations, this is the only organization that sticks together, where we have love among ourselves.
Joe:	Is that right?
JD:	Joe, you know it.
Joe:	No, let’s turn that situation around Jxx, if you were Christ and came into the congregation, you would know where the need would be, you wouldn’t be looking for the faults, you’d be looking for the need.
Jim:	Yeah

Joe:	One thing I’d like to make clear, we’re not here because a gripe on our part particularly, so get that out of your minds. I don’t care, I made up my mind. At first, I was very hurt about it. I was very hurt. But then I thought, it honestly doesn’t matter to me. I’m going back, I’m going to prove that they can’t do that to me and finally I got disgusted. Velta stopped going to the meeting sfor three months before ever anybody ever asked about her and then it was only a casual thing. One sister was stumbled and so far nobody has gone back to see why. But we’re accused of apostatizing that woman because she sat reading the Bible with us. But nobody found out what we were doing, nobody found out what we were actually teaching. Nobody did that Jxx.
JD:	I’m sure there are a lot of problems, Joe, but the main thing we’re concerned with, get our position, you’ve been on a committee
Joe:	Organization is what you’re concerned with.
JD:	No, I’m concerned with, you were charged with apostasy. These brothers charged you with apostasy, apostasy
Joe:	And I say the charge is false.
JD:	Okay, but Joe the charge of apostasy is defined
Joe:	By the Society, not by the Bible.
JD:	Yes, that’s right, there’s no scripture that
Joe:	Well, as far as that’s concerned there is no argument, we’re apostate, we’re apostate, but this is what I’m saying that it’s not a kindness and a loving thing for you to get up on the platform and say “these people are apostates” because people get the idea that

JD:	(said something to the effect that they wouldn’t say that)
Joe:	Okay, disfellowshipped, what’s the difference? Things are circulated so people believe we’re apostate. Right now, it’s not true.
JD:	I don’t know about that.
Joe:	That’s what we object to
GB:	But it didn’t come from us, Joe.
Joe:	Maybe so, but you have the responsibility to make it clear that that is not the case scripturally. It’s not the care scripturally, Gxxx.
JD:	See, I understand what Joe’s saying, I understand. You feel, I don’t question that you feel sincerely that you are not apostate, scripturally. No question of that.
Joe:	We’re all wasting our time then as far as that’s concerned then. Because if we’re following the Bible then that’s one thing
JD:	But, Joe, just like the Baptists disfellowshipped me for being apostate when I became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can’t argue with them about the scriptures, because they don’t believe the scriptures the way I believe them now, but that still makes me an apostate against them.

Joe:	I can understand that, but they did not say, did not read your name off from the platform in the Baptist Church and say “don’t anybody . . . "
JD:	No, but they removed me from their files
Joe:	Oh, big deal. But here you see this is what happens in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. People become, and they use the term, “They shall turn them over to Satan.” KS said to me: “I’m sorry, but I know if you are disfellowshipped you’re going to go into the world and he said, “If I were into the world, I know where I would go.” I don’t know what he was talking about, because I’m not going any Satanic way. I’m sorry, my heart is toward Jehovah and Christ Jesus. But to me like the society has advocated many times, you have to have two or more scriptures to prove something, anything including the one on the Faithful and Discreet Slave class but does not substantiate.
JD:	You honestly feel, I’m not questioning you and they’re not questioning your sincerity, that you honestly feel that many of these things are just not right. The 144,000 and so forth and so on and smoking and so
Joe:	Smoking! Those things are irrelevant
JD:	No. No. I know, I know you’re sincere about it but it doesn’t change the facts.
Joe:	The thing we really object to is the lack of love, Jim, the way things are carried on.
Velta:	What happened was so many things that I have seen lately. I saw my best friend disfellowshipped on trumped up charges. I mean they went out and gathered (stuff) that was not even true. She was guilty of other things, I mean I would have admitted to that, she actually was not a very good mother, because she went out from door to door when she should have been at home taking care of them, but the charges that they brought on her, causing divisions, were absolutely trumped up and they went to great lengths, hours of gathering information from people, the whole congregation was involved in gathering this information, that was one thing. Then an article in Time Magazine.
GB:	Velta, just a minute before you finish, the sister did appeal and it came out all right.

Velta:	She did appeal that’s fine, but I saw a lack of love
Joe:	That’s right it was all right because of the love of those three brothers who took the time to straighten things out.
GB:	You said there’s no love
Velta:	I didn’t say there was no love, I didn’t say no love
Joe:	I said there was a lack of love, you’ve misquoted me.
JD:	There’s a lack of love on the part of all of us.
Velta:	That’s what I’m saying, that’s the point. It’s not you and It’s not him and it’s not him or him. It is the system of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
JD:	Not the system of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses, I’ve been in other religions and all I know is this is the only place there is love.
Velta:	There is one channel

JD:	Love may be lacking. There may be a need for more of it, but it certainly is the only place you’ll find
Joe:	There may be some love. When I brought that up with KS, he said that, “That brother so and so, he would die for you”. I said, “If he’d die for me why doesn’t he come to see me and see why I’m not coming to the meetings.” He said? “He’s imperfect”. I buy imperfection because I know how imperfect I am
JD:	Well, that’s, this is an endless debate, our position is, see that we are here to hear an appeal for the charge of apostasy. I think it is just cut and dried in the fact that you really admit you’re apostate as far as the Society
Joe:	I admit that we do not agree with the teachings of the Society, you define that any way you want, because you see the Society is not my criterion, the Bible is my criterion.
Velta:	The Bible says there is one channel and you just mentioned a while ago that you think this is the channel. The Bible says there is one channel and it’s Christ Jesus. So if he is the channel, then he’s having to share his position with the Watchtower Society in your opinion.
JD:	No, he uses this channel.
Joe:	So then the channel is like the Pope and the College of Cardinals?
JD:	Agreed
Joe:	Right, it’s an organized religion just like the Catholic Church, just like the Mormons are organized?

JD:	We’re an organized religion.
Joe:	That’s right.
JD:	Oh, yes
Velta:	And yet Rutherford for years railed again organized religion.
GB:	Now when do you think this organization stopped being God’s organization?
Joe:	I don’t think it ever was God’s organization, Greg, according to the Scriptures.
GB:	You never believed that it was?
Joe:	At one time, I did. But you know, and I’m going to make a statement and you’re not going to agree with, but I don’t believe Jehovah’s Witnesses actually read the Bible like they should read the Bible. Sure they go thru a chapter at a time in the school and talk about it a little but they never read what the Bible actually says.
Velta:	Well you’re not allowed to think about it.

Joe:	You’re not allowed to make your own thoughts because if you do you’re up in front of a committee and you’re out in the cold, like we’re going to be out in the cold because it’s organization, it’s not scriptural, it’s organizational.
Velta:	You know when I started reading the Bible, it was to prove JWs were right. I had never in my life, in the 40 some years that I had been one JWs, had never read the Bible with an unbiased mind, like say Bro. Russell did, never had. I’d always said, “Oh yeah, that scripture means such and such,” and when I’d come to it in Bible reading, I’d already have a preconceived idea of what it meant. I did not have to do research on the context of it or anything. But when I started reading the scriptures, I had read the article in Time Magazine that said that Ray Franz had been disfellowshipped because he had a meal with a disassociated person, and I know Ray Franz, he’s a very kind, loving man. When I started to read the Bible, I read it to prove that Ray was wrong, when he talked about more than a special class that was going to heaven and I didn’t believe that.
PN:	May I ask a question? Joe said, “I admit that I do not agree with the teachings of the Society.” Can you say that?
Velta:	Some of them
PN:	No, can you say, “I admit that I do not agree with the teachings of the Society?”
Joe:	I don’t mean all of them.
Velta:	I don’t say I don’t believe all of them.
PN:	Well, Christ is the Messiah, everybody, all religions..
Joe:	Hey, let’s not limit it to one thing, come on Pxxxx.

PN:	No, No, I’m just saying that sure even Catholics believe a lot of things the Society does.
Velta:	Well, of course, because if
Joe:	We go further than that Pxxx.
JD:	But you don’t really feel that the organization is Jehovah’s channel?
Velta:	I don’t think it’s relevant in being a Christian. I’ll tell you what scared me; is when Jim Jones group, he told them. “Let’s go drink some Kool-aid that's poisoned” and everybody went right along with it. I see that same tendency among JWs. You say, “Don’t associate with these people” and these people who have been my friends for 40 years, I’m not changing as far as I am a person, just a few of the beliefs I might have because I find that in the Bible they seem to teach a different way. I see the same tendency, these people, my friends, my children, the Thomases. We as close as family to those children and yet they, like Jesus said in the Bible that they were expelled from the synagogue. Brothers and friends and mothers. They’ll persecute you and I feel that is what’s happening.
JD:	You think the Society does that?
Velta:	Yeah, I think they do, I think
Joe:	They break up families, Jxx, they do. By disfellowshipping they tear families apart because they don’t associate with them, don’t have any spiritual association.
Velta:	Not only spiritual, but physical too.

JD:	You kind of said that here, “you are placing before our friends and family a choice," loyalty to you or the organization.
Velta:	And I don’t think it’s a matter of loyalty to God.
JD:	You don’t think, do you think maybe you’re the ones that are doing this, or do you think it’s the organization
Joe:	The organization.
Velta:	Do you think my friends and family will talk to me after this meeting is over? Do you think that? So what have I got to do with it?
JD:	Well, because you put yourself in that position.
Velta:	I can’t help what I believe, my conscience tells me certain things are so and I can’t deny my conscience.
PN:	Now you see, the definition of an apostate is “a person stubbornly holding and speaking about or spreading it.” Now the first part of that, “stubbornly holding to and speaking about” now you see do we have that here where you’re holding to and speaking about, ah, ah, teachings contrary to the Bible truth as taught by JWs?
Joe:	Paul, we’re not deaf-mutes.

PN:	No! No!....
Joe:	Now, wait a minute, hear me out, you asked a question, now hear me out.
PN:	Because, no, I wanted to just as a, as a fact, because all this information as to what you believe and pray for is irrelevant to the case, because you presented it to them and we know this is the way you believe, if you are “holding to and speaking about teachings contrary to what the Society teaches”…
Joe:	When you say speaking about, speaking about…we have never gone out and spoken about it to anyone who didn’t ask us, at all!
JD:	Okay, but see it says “or deliberately spreading”, you say you haven’t been deliberately spreading……?
Joe:	No, we haven’t been “deliberately spreading”.
JD:	Okay, but the first part of that “holding to it” and..
Joe:	Absolutely, based on the scriptures…
JD:	You feel it’s based on the scriptures?

Velta:	But if you ask me, I’m going to tell you.
JD:	Oh, yeah.
Joe:	In every case, of the witnesses you have, that has been the case.
JD:	What has happened is: Is this true? That since you’ve been studying the Bible, you feel that you’ve got a clearer understanding of the scriptures different than the Society?
Joe:	Different than the Society. We’re reading the Bible for what the Bible says.
JD:	Yeah, you think it tells something different from the Society. So you’re holding to that. You’re not going to go along with the Society on the 144,000.
Joe:	No, because there’s not enough proof, Jxx, there’s not enough proof.
Velta:	Well, I think there is a hundred, hey, I think there is going to be 144,000 up in heaven, yes, I do.
Joe:	Because the Bible says….

JD:	But there could be a lot more?
Velta:	I think if you’ll read the 4th through the 7th chapters of Revelation with an open mind, you’ll see that too.
JD:	That there are more?
Velta:	Yeah, it speaks of the great crowd as being, as being up before the throne, in heaven
JD:	Okay, well, I….
Velta:	So what am I going to think, if it says that in the Bible, I believe it and I’m not going to look at that scripture and say, well, that doesn’t mean that they’re up in heaven, in the temple. It does say it.
Joe:	As far as organization in concerned. The organization regulations that you have there, they are not open to the common ordinary congregations and you’re running yourself a little group here that says you can do this and you can’t do that.

(End of first side of tape. I missed the conversation that went on as I went to the bathroom to turn the tape over.)
JD:	I, from what we discussed here, I think that we’d like to just, you want to stay here and we’ll go out in the back and have a little discussion. Can we break this up for a minute?
Joe:	Sure
Velta:	Go ahead
Small talk.
JD:	Well, in looking over these and referring a little here, we, ah, we feel we have arrived at a decision. We’d like to talk to this committee a little, short while. Could you just step out in the foyer and have a drink or whatever and we’ll call you back in a couple of minutes.
(I left my purse, which had the tape recorder in it, in the room. This is the conversation when we were out of the room. Since the voices were hushed, sometimes who is saying what is not clear and it only picked up bits and pieces at some times.)

??	They’re standing there. I hope they’re not recording this (laughter)
??	We uphold your decision…….it’s obvious…….but we go by this definition here….he’s apostate
TB:	They try to say we haven’t approached them. I’ve been and Kxxx’s been to Joe’s house twice. I know Kxxx’s been over there a half dozen times. Bro….. who’s that brother that runs Caterpillars and heavy equipment? Pxxxxxx, AP has been over there several times. It’s not like nobody……
??	…..feelings hurt……
JD:	Their feelings were hurt a way back and they allowed a loophole for the Devil and he’s moved in and taken over. So what we can do here is let them know what our decision is to hold to your decision to disfellowship.” Anyway, we’re basing it on what he says and what it says here and then you’re going to type up that form and get a copy, and get it to us, signed……….then we need a letter……..then we’re going to make up a letter tomorrow and then……Who’s going to mail it?.......You give us your form…….No, No, we don’t want to do it on Tuesday, we want to get this thing done. Would we announce it before…..Our congregation usually sends us a letter….. We don’t announce anything until we send a letter. We better send it right away, if you’ll do that right away……We have to make a couple more copies. Make one, just like this…..a chain letter…..We have the Directory….the Greater Sacramento area……..Make it seven words and no more. (laughter)
GB:	I’d like to tell you brothers something. I’m really pleased…….I’m glad to see your support.
JD:	It was really cut and dried.
??	I know it is, but because……smoking…..this is worse….
TB:	They felt that smoking and some of those disfellowshipped……further reasons……dirty, filthy habits….based on those……Let’s call them back.
Small talk.

JD:	Well, after conferring together out there in the back, we feel we have to uphold the decision of the original committee to disfellowship on the grounds of apostasy. We admit that you are apostate according to and defined by the Society.
Joe:	According to the “Organization” book?
JD:	Yeah and there’s nothing else we can do and how you view that. I think, with your experience and background, what else can we do?
Joe:	Well, you know what’s lacking here, Jxxx, I think, more than anything else and I think JWs have backwards is scriptural direction, not organizational direction.
JD:	We feel it does.
Velta:	Well the thing is that Jesus said you would know his people by the love among them and….
JD:	We feel it is.
Velta:	Yes, I know you think it is, but the thing is to me, love is something different than what you think love is. I think love is caring for people.
JD:	We do.

Joe:	Not all do. I’m sure you do Jxxx.
Velta:	There are individuals who do but……
Joe:	I think decisions like this are an expression of a lack of love.
PN:	May I clarify one thing, you’re saying that upholding the original decision for both of them.
JD:	Yes.
PN:	You were looking right at Joe when you said that.
JD:	No, they’re both disfellowshipped.
Velta:	Well, I, the thing is, I think the whole system is wrong in the fact that men take it upon themselves the right to judge other people. When Jesus was on earth, he said to the Pharisees in John Chapter 8: “I do no judge you” and yet he was the one who was to become the judge of the universe. He was a perfect man.
JD:	You see what you’re saying, it in itself are apostate statements.

Joe:	You have no right to judge people, that’s what we say.
Velta:	That’s what the Bible says.
Joe:	If you want to call it apostate, do whatever you want to do.
PN:	Paul said to Corinthians: “You judge those inside the congregation, while God judges those on the outside.”
Velta:	But he wasn’t talking about…..
Joe:	Disfellowshipping!
JD:	But that is the way we feel and that’s the way the Society feels. You feel the opposite, that makes you……
Joe:	Apostate?
JD:	Yes

Velta:	Because we take the Bible….
Joe:	That makes you apostate as far as the Bible is concerned.
JD:	As far as you’re concerned, we’re…….yeah.
Joe:	As far as the Bible is concerned, you’re apostate.
JD:	I want you to understand our view.
Joe:	I know your view.
JD:	Okay
Joe:	But that doesn’t give us the right to get up on the platform and say we believe that the whole congregation has been disfellowshipped.
JD:	You’ll be able to say that outside, which is fine.

Velta:	The point is we’re not accepting this disfellowshipping. As far as we’re concerned, you may not talk to us, but we will talk to anybody we please.
JD:	Oh
Joe:	And we know that whoever talks to us will be here before you mean as…….we know that.
JD:	But, well..(laughter)
GB:	(unable to hear this part)
Joe:	Oh, I’m sure you will.
GB:	What I’m saying is we could spend all night here about what is right or not.
Joe:	You can’t hurt us any more than you have already.
GB:	We don’t want to hurt you Joe.

Joe:	You do though.
JD:	I don’t know these two brothers very well, but I do know Jxxxxxx.
Joe:	I don’t care, the system….
JD:	Jxxxxx wouldn’t hurt you. (Jxxxxx has not said a word throughout this whole meeting. He just sat there.)
Joe:	I know he wouldn’t physically hurt me, I know Jxxxxxx that well.
JD:	He wouldn’t physically, emotionally, mentally or any way hurt you.
Joe:	But he does, when he does that, yes…You do, he does, he does and when that statement is made that “you’re disfellowshipped” everybody turns their hearts cold.
JD:	Joe, Joe, if he felt that Christ wasn’t behind him 100 percent, I know exactly what he would do, he’d break down and bawl, right now. (See Jxxxxxx is the one here that is put up as the ‘caring one”. No one else says that they care.)
Joe:	You think I don’t feel the same?

JD:	I know you do, but somehow you see the New English Bible says when you have a difference and you’ve had problems with brothers, it says we should settle those differences, do not let the sun set with you in a provoked state.
Joe:	How many times……
JD:	But listen to the rest of this in the New English Bible, it says. “Do not let the sunset find you nursing the problem otherwise you allow an opening for the Devil” and he gets in and he will twist us in such a distorted way.
Joe:	If the Devil is named Jesus Christ then that’s what he has done, Jxxx, but it is not because I have turned bitter, not that. I contend the same thing now that I always, I’ve had no ill feelings for any brother. I don’t care what, who he is, in this congregation or any other congregations.
JD:	Don’t.
Joe:	Nor will I, Nor will I, Jxxx.
JD:	Okay, well don’t and pray about it and like I mentioned, she mentioned in one of her comments that she’s going to watch this organization. Watch it! It’s what the new Yearbook, I’ve read it and what’s going on in the world from ringing doorbells is amazing.
(If you have noticed during this whole meeting, I, Velta, am never addressed. I am always referred to as “she” or "your wife." In the WT organization, women are not considered as of any special importance. It is men who run the organization and make all the decisions.)
Joe:	That’s fine.

Velta:	I do not say that going from door to door does not find converts, but I’ve gone from door to door for 40 years and never found one and I think that I could have better spent my time with my family and visiting my neighbors who knew me. I mean, my neighbors knew me but not as a Christian, they knew me as one of JWs. You know a Christian by the things that they do. If you go and know them so that if they’re sick, you go and take them something. I didn’t know my neighbors. Because even though the Society said you should be kind to this one and kind to that one, yet they did not encourage me to. It’s like telling a child that carrots are good for you, but every time they reach for one, you slap their hand. That’s the way, I was raised and I think that is much more effective, so I don’t say you can’t find people from door to door.
GB:	One other thing, Jim, I think you should address to get this decision finalized. At least we are obligated to explain the necessary steps for reinstatement. (Notice that what I have said is totally ignored and it is: “Let’s get on with this business at hand”)
Velta:	I don’t think that is necessary. We know what it is, that’s not necessary. We know, probably all the doctrines that you brothers know as well as you know them and I don’t think we need even go into the details. I know if I ever want to come back, all I have to do is admit that JWs are right. That’s all.
GB:	It takes more than that, it takes repentance.
Velta:	Well, what is that? I mean you have to accept what I say. It might not be from my heart, but I could get back that way.
GB:	(talks about works befitting repentance)
Velta:	That’s right. If I come to the meetings and sit down here and go perfunctorily from door to door, that would be all the works you need.
GB:	I just want you to understand we would like to have you back.
Joe:	We appreciate that you do, we really do.

GB:	The steps to take--you know what you have to do.
JD:	People respect you in the area, or have, for years.
Joe:	I’ve given my life for JWs, I have. There’s not one Kingdom Hall, I haven’t worked on.
JD:	That’s why Peter said: “Where else are we going to turn?” Going to be a Catholic?
Joe:	Yeah, but remember Peter was addressing Jesus, he wasn’t addressing an organization. Jesus asked him, “Where you going to go”? He said: “Where else is there to go” and he was addressing Jesus.
Velta:	Jehovah and Christ Jesus are the only source of life. We cannot divorce ourselves from them.
JD:	With the point of view you have, the good news of the Kingdom would never be preached throughout the earth.
Velta:	I don’t agree.
Joe:	No, I don’t agree either because the Bible very plainly says “make disciples.”

JD:	Joe, it’s not being done. Only JWs are doing it.
Velta:	I don’t agree with that.
Joe:	I don’t agree with that either.
Velta:	They are the only ones going out from door to door, but I don’t agree they are the only ones preaching the good news.
Joe:	They are the only ones that are preaching the good news according to the way the Society teaches and there again we come back to organization
JD:	We hope, I do and all of us do, that we’ll see you again, we do.
Joe:	I’m sure and we hope that you learn your priorities the way the Bible teaches.
JD:	Well, I work at it. I really work at it.
Joe:	So do I.

Velta:	Well, the thing is that Jehovah is going to judge you men. You have a weightier responsibility than any of us. He’s going to judge you as well as he does us, on our hearts. Not what we believe or what doctrines we teach. He going to judge us all on our hearts and that’s the way we feel.
JD:	I kind of hope you feel we have allowed you to talk.
Joe:	Oh, you’ve allowed us to talk, for all the good it’s done.
JD:	(laughs) Well, you understand. I think you understand.
Joe:	Oh, I understand. It’s a hierarchy. I don’t care how you spell it, it’s a hierarchy because it’s an organized religion, that’s what it is.
JD:	Well, you have to have organization, you have to be organized.
Joe:	But it doesn’t have to be organized to the point that three men deciding whether you live or die, if you do or don’t……
Velta:	Telling you what each and every thing you do in your life.
JD:	Let me put it this way. Our disfellowshipping someone or not disfellowshipping someone isn’t final with Jehovah.

Joe:	Amen!
GB:	And we all admit that.
Velta:	But the Watchtower….
JD:	He’s doing the best he can, I am, Jxxxx is. We’re all doing the best we can, as we see the scriptures. How to keep things going the proper way. We’re doing our best.
Velta:	I’ve heard it said from the platform that if you’re not in this organization when Armageddon comes that you won’t make it. I’ve heard that said at big assemblies…
JD:	Well probably, I would say that the brother who said it, I’m sure was very sincere.
Velta:	I’m sure he was.
Joe:	There are a lot of sincere people and they’re not all JWs.
JD:	The thing is, Joe, what I’ve seen happen and I’ve seen it many times. Brothers will embark down this road and pretty soon, we never see them or hear from them again.

Joe:	Because you don’t allow them to be around anywhere to be heard or seen.
JD:	No, they just disappear, when their religious avenue they pursue…..
Joe:	Jehovah takes, or Satan takes them or something?
JD:	Pardon? No, the religious avenue they pursue finally just fizzles out.
Joe:	Oh, I’ve heard that too. I don’t agree with that as far as people and their hearts. If it’s right in conjunction with the Bible. They don’t come up as an organized religion.....
JD:	If your heart is right, you’ll be back with us.
Joe:	That’s your observation.
JD:	We feel that way.
Velta:	Your opinion.

Joe:	If my heart is right, I’m following Jehovah God and Christ Jesus, that’s what you should say.
JD:	If you are and we are, we’re all going to be together.
Velta:	Two ifs.
Joe:	Now that’s a better statement than the former. If our hearts are right, we’ll be together, but now don’t say it because of the organization.
JD:	(laughs) Thanks for taking your time. Goodbye.

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